Colin Hawthorne
Hello all. I am pursuing a Sonata which has surveyed well apart from the main bulkhead. A bradawl went in easily around the starboard shroud plate, and there is a wood veneer screwed to the aft face of the bulkhead extending 8-10″ from the coachroof. Being naturally suspicious I am concerned this is hiding something. Surveyor says;
1. It is not unusual with a Sonata of this age for the main bulkhead in way of the shroud plates to deteriorate under the GRP bonding and it is my opinion that this vessel has reached a stage in her life where these should be inspected more thoroughly by removing the veneer on the after side of the bulkheads and un-bolting the shroud plates.
2. It is my opinion that these shroud plates may require some extra stiffening and repair work in and around the bonding of the shroud plates.
3. It is a good idea to add a strong back on the forward side of the bulkhead, using longer bolts and then bolting the strong back brace through the bulkhead down to the top of the bunk tops in the fo’c’s’le. This would then ensure that the shroud plates would not move.
I am useless at DIY and would appreciate if someone could tell me how difficult it is to strengthen the bulkhead, has anyone undertaken this, is it merely a short term fix, should I just walk away? I have seen Ruffian 23’s and Eygthene 24’s on the web with this problem that needed major remedial work. I would love it if I were overeacting but really don’t want to be buying trouble. Thank you. I have tried to enclose bulkhead pic below.
Colin Hawthorne
Thank you to both Neil McLure and Jack Hardie for speedy responses. Neil, my concern is not that the bulkhead is just a bit soft around the shroud plate attachments, but that the integrity of the upper part of the bulkhead across its entire width is compromised, disguised by veneer on aft surface and some glass sheathing forward – latter disclosed following conversation with surveyor. He wouldn’t be drawn, noting that the veneer would need to be removed for proper inspection. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t want to take a chance – even though not a lot of money is at stake, I’d rather save up and invest in a new boat along the lines of Malbec 240. Its an awful shame as I’ve hankered after a Sonata for a long time and there is a very active fleet beside me at Strangford Lough. Other than this the boat really did survey well and surveyor himself did not jump to the conclusion I have. She will probably be a fantastic buy for someone more savvy than me. Thanks again.
Colin Hawthorne
Mark Taylor
I had similar concerns after I had owned Saraband for a few years.
I removed the shroud plates and found that there was some water penetration into the surrounding ply and that the wood was slightly soft for about 3/8″ around the worst hole. In fairness to Hunters I think their plywood was fairly resistant to water penetration as there was no softness or damp beyond the immediate area.
My repair was very simple in that I used a larger wood drill to remove the soft wood and then made a West epoxy mix with one of their fillers to make good the holes, having of course ensured that the wood was dry before I started. In all the repair took perhaps a few hours over a couple of weekends and a heater in the boat for a few days to help dry it out. The repair was done from the forward cabin side, meaning that the veneer didn’t need to be removed and just white paint could be applied to the repaired area. My chain plates are actually bolted on top of the main bulkhead veneer (not hidden like yours) and I think this is acceptable both cosmetically and also ensures if there is any subsequent leaking then it is easier to spot at an early stage.
As part of my repair I also made some nylon cover plates (subsequently replaced with stainless) which I put around the chain plates on the deck with loads of silicon bedding compound. A better method is on the website courtesy Martin Hartley but I didn
Jack Hardie
Further to Mark’s comments – if you look at the photo at the bottom of the Practical Boat Owner review on the web site (http://sonata.jhardie.com/about/pboreview.php) you’ll see the shroud plates clearly visible.
jack
Ian Buchan
Hi Colin.
We had exactly the same surveyor comment when we bought Libretto last season.
I bit the bullet & had a go at removing the laminate which turned out to a be pretty straightforward excersize using basic joinery skills: remove all the fixings, shroud plates, bunk brackets (& in our case the sounder, fire extinguisher etc), unscrew the teak centre joining strip & prise off any edge strips. A flat tyre lever was used to pry behind the laminate, take it slow & it comes off in two halfs. Use these as a template to make the replacements, including any holes, from plywood & put a few coats of varnish on each side (go for teak faced ply if you want but its mega bucks, Libretto has 4mm WBP from the local builders merchant)
The bulkhead itself is 12mm ply, glassed over approx 300mm square around the chain plate bolt holes. Ours was absolutely solid & needed no remedial work whatsoever, (surveyors eh !!).
The hardest bit about re-fitting is getting the new starboard half through the hatch, it doesn’t fit & needs serious bending, creaking & some cracking noises to get it through. Use a board adhesive like ‘no-nails’ over the bulkhead, & fix the new laminate with 12 cs stainless screws. replace all the fixings, edge strips etc & not only is the damp problem resolved but the interior look of the boat is transformed.
I also followed the general principle of Martins mod to the chainplates but used layer over layer of self amalgamating rubber tape to create the flange for sicaflexing under. So far so good this season.
Hope this helps. Its a straightforward enough job but probably best left till winter.
Colin Hawthorne
Hi Colin.We had exactly the same surveyor comment when we bought Libretto last season.
I bit the bullet & had a go at removing the laminate which turned out to a be pretty straightforward excersize using basic joinery skills: remove all the fixings, shroud plates, bunk brackets (& in our case the sounder, fire extinguisher etc), unscrew the teak centre joining strip & prise off any edge strips. A flat tyre lever was used to pry behind the laminate, take it slow & it comes off in two halfs. Use these as a template to make the replacements, including any holes, from plywood & put a few coats of varnish on each side (go for teak faced ply if you want but its mega bucks, Libretto has 4mm WBP from the local builders merchant)
The bulkhead itself is 12mm ply, glassed over approx 300mm square around the chain plate bolt holes. Ours was absolutely solid & needed no remedial work whatsoever, (surveyors eh !!).
The hardest bit about re-fitting is getting the new starboard half through the hatch, it doesn’t fit & needs serious bending, creaking & some cracking noises to get it through. Use a board adhesive like ‘no-nails’ over the bulkhead, & fix the new laminate with 12 cs stainless screws. replace all the fixings, edge strips etc & not only is the damp problem resolved but the interior look of the boat is transformed.
I also followed the general principle of Martins mod to the chainplates but used layer over layer of self amalgamating rubber tape to create the flange for sicaflexing under. So far so good this season.
Hope this helps. Its a straightforward enough job but probably best left till winter.
Tim Owen
I was worried about my chainplates this year, especially as water occasionally trickled out from the bottom of the ply veneer covering. I prised off the port veneer carefully, having cut a line across near the top, and found the ply bulkhead was fine. I took out the chainplate and cleaned off the ply for a few inches around the chainplate position on both sides of the bulkhead and polished up the chainplate and cleaned the deck slot out with a file and acetone. A quick coat of white floodcoat resin on the ply, slip the chainplate back with a good plug of silicone sealant and some smart new button headed M6 screws in A4 grade stainless and self locking nuts on penny washers fixed it all back. I then cut the veneer face carefully so that it left the chainplate exposed with a margin of an inch all round and re-fitted it and ran a bead of white silicone sealant round the edge of the cutout. to make sure any leaks ran down the outside. On the forward face I used lining carpet, similarly cut to expose the bolts. Result is a perfectly presentable appearance with nothing hidden – in fact it looks pretty smart. I’ll do the stbd one next year.
If I was worried about the deck seal, I wouldn’t try welding onto the chainplates, I’d try making a loose plate with a slot to fit over the chainplate and fix it with 2 bolts through the deck and sandwich a carefully cut gasket of 2 mm silicone rubber sheet down on a bed of sealant, that way you can easily service the gasket.
Tim
Colin Hawthorne
Thank you all for your responses they have been very informative. I have just acquired Bach Lash, formerly Miss Moneypenny, and enjoyed an exhilarating sail in Strangford Lough. I think I’m going to love Sonata sailing and the kids are queuing up to take over when I graduate to something more sedate. This forum and the association are what keeps Sonatas alive quite apart from their abilities. Thank you all again and I don’t doubt I’ll have to call on your advice again.
Colin Hawthorne
Jack Hardie
I seem to remember that this problem has occurred in one or two of the Sonatas in Hong Kong – probably due to the warm, wet climate. I’ve sent an email to the class secretary in HK to ask if anyone out there has any relevant information.
I guess we’d all be interested to know if anyone else has experienced any signs of this in the uk or whether it’s a one-off.
Jack Hardie