Chris Bentley
Congratulations to High Note, who won the Sonata RTI. Also, to Piccolo who got 17th in the IRC overall.
I would very much like any comments from those of you who competed in this year’s race.
I have a comment about this race which I would like you, especially you Southern guys, to consider:
It strikes me as daft that, with a rather small (this year six) number of Sonatas entered, we still race for a Sonata Trophy alone. (It’s a very nice tray, and I was happy to have it on my mantlepiece last year), however, we, Sonatas, have a capacity to do fairly well under IRC. Some of our Southern members, noteably, Piccolo, have ploughed this route. My suggestion is that any Sonata who wants to enter the RTI gets themselves an IRC handicap (about £50.00), starts IRC. We race IRC, and, maybe, (see below) we do ok. The Sonata Salver is then awarded to the first Sonata home in the IRC race. Is there a problem here? Let me know.
What follows is my comments, sent in an email, to the RTI Organisers,
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen,
Having just returned from the Scottish Series and our National Champs (Helensburgh, Clyde) and, obviously having missed the RTI this year for those reasons, one of my first hits was to look at the results of the RTI.
I see the Nordic Folkboats have triumphed again overall.
I competed last year in BFG, my Sonata, and we were fortunate to win the Sonata Salver.
I think you will find if you look at the times for 2009, that we also made a fast passage on an IRC rating. I regret that we did not enter the IRC Class!
I have competed in the RTI for several years, previously not on my boat, and both inside and outside the Fort. I have a pretty fair appreciation of the racecourse.
What seems to have happened, since the Fort was removed as a mark of the course (and I accept your logic for this) is that the race is won over the Ryde sands. This completely favours the boats that can sail another 50 metres out of the tide on a gently shelving shoal. Ie, the shallowest boats, pretty much, Nordic Folkboats.
Last year, we were level-pegging with Rattatat, the 2009 winner, all the way down the South side of the Island, despite our different start times. We were literally gybing in and out of each other’s wind some 25 – 50 metres apart all the way. At Bembridge Ledge, we lost contact because of the huge stack of larger boats there becalmed. My estimation is that we cleared out before Rattatat and gained the maximum tide advantage we could until we had to head out to avoid the “trap” on the Ryde Sands. I can assure you we left it until the last possible minute as we were skating over the bottom with the keel bumping on the lumps. Thence the tacking duel past the “trap” and until the Ryde Pier. We, and some 50 other boats pushed our luck on depth to the limit. Behind, The Nordics were skating another 50 – 100 metres inshore and out of the tide. We finished well before them, in company with a huge range of IRC rated boats, mostly larger than us.
Nevertheless, the Nordic’s triumphed.
This year, which I did not compete in for the reasons above, the Nordics did it again in rather different conditions.
Far be it from me to contest the Nordic Folkboat handicap. I don’t think that is the point. What I do think the point is this:
If you run a race where the shallower you can go on the last foul-tide beat the more you gain, then the more conventional race boats who form the majority of your fleet will lose out big time. We, as Sonatas, and a couple of Limbos and the one-offs can probably get the closest to the Nordics on draft. Nevertheless, we cannot, as the last two year’s results show, because of our extra 4″ of draft, beat them over this part of the course.
The point is, given that a majority of your 1500 plus fleet are able to sail the course from the Start to Bembridge Ledge fairly competently, to be completely outmaneuvered by shallow draft boats must be hugely frustrating.
It is certainly not the only part of the course that makes a difference, but my reading is that, in the last couple of years, Ryde Sands have been the critical difference.
We will compete in the 2011 RTI but I wonder how many competitive IRC boats will look at their chances and decide that it is a foregone conclusion and not comne?
I am old enough to remember the successes of Jeremy Rogers and the Contessas.
And I love the RTI. It is one of the best races in the World.
My plea is that you level the playing field to remove the advantage of skimming the Ryde Sands by another 50 metres plus inshore. The majority of the fleet can get no-where near this and it is, in my experience, a huge advantage for shallow- draft craft.
How you do it, it’s up to you.
Hope you find this helpful.
Chris Bentley
BFG and NSA Chair
Robert Davis
Chris,
Having just done the RTI for the first time, regrettably not in a Snotty, I agree with your thoughts on folding the Sonata fleet into the main fleet. Competing against 5 or 6 other boats in a race with 1754 entries makes us very much a side show to the main event.
In this year’s event there would have been a very real chance of a Sonata winning the event in the IRC class. How would that have been for class publicity?
Whilst the conditions were very Sonata friendly with flat seas and a decent breeze, the winner often comes from the sub class in which we would compete. Admittedly it often seems to be Nordic Folkboat!
Agree with your comments on Ryde sands. The dice are heavily loaded against the big boats to start with. Their early start means that they are likely to have less wind and this year there was a big shift which meant that whilst Leopard had to beat all the way from St Cats to Bembridge we fetched it. I have no knowledge of why they took the fort out of the course but it seems a no brainer to force the boats outside the one nearest the island (No Mans Land I think).
Roll on next year.
Bob
Chris Bentley
Hi all, and Bob especially,
The reason they (the RTI Management) took No Man’s Land Fort out was because (they say) of the navigational logistics of taking the RTI fleet out into the main shipping channel whilst there could well be major traffic in/outbound for Southampton. The net result has been that we miss the serious party music that the then owner of the Fort used to blast out over the Solent, accompanied by cheering ladies in skimpy costumes. (It was a highlight of the course)! A great shame. Health and Safety triumphs again.
The net result has been that any reasonably competitive shallow draft boat has a huge advantage over the rest of the whole fleet. It is something I have pointed out to the Organisers, as my previous posts explain. A Sonata still has a fighting chance, although, as I say, that extra 4″ of draft tells. We beat Rattatat in 2009 by over 20 minutes up the Solent beat, but it still was not quite enough when we worked it out on IRC handicap. (We reckon we would have been 3rd or 4th had we raced IRC).
My post to the RTI Organisers explains it clearly and leaves the ball in their court. Let’s see.
And, as a PS to all you Southern guys, what about Burnham 2010 and, even more, Medway 2012? Please respond.
Thanks
Chris
Chris Bentley
Hi all, and Bob especially,
The reason they (the RTI Management) took No Man’s Land Fort out was because (they say) of the navigational logistics of taking the RTI fleet out into the main shipping channel whilst there could well be major traffic in/outbound for Southampton. The net result has been that we miss the serious party music that the then owner of the Fort used to blast out over the Solent, accompanied by cheering ladies in skimpy costumes. (It was a highlight of the course)! A great shame. Health and Safety triumphs again.
The net result has been that any reasonably competitive shallow draft boat has a huge advantage over the rest of the whole fleet. It is something I have pointed out to the Organisers, as my previous posts explain. A Sonata still has a fighting chance, although, as I say, that extra 4″ of draft tells. We beat Rattatat in 2009 by over 20 minutes up the Solent beat, but it still was not quite enough when we worked it out on IRC handicap. (We reckon we would have been 3rd or 4th had we raced IRC).
My post to the RTI Organisers explains it clearly and leaves the ball in their court. Let’s see.
And, as a PS to all you Southern guys, what about Burnham 2010 and, even more, Medway 2012? Please respond.
Thanks
Chris
Chris Halewood
Hi Chris
There were eight Sonatas in the RTI. Six just raced for the Sonata Salver and as you say Piccolo raced in IRC 3D and Pintsize in ISCRS 8B………it looks as thought they were looking for the Family Trophy which is an ISCRS trophy.
As I read the results Pintsize made the quickest passage at 8hrs 45mins and 26secs which gave her a 54th place overall in ISCRS out of 821 boats. Piccolo got round in 9:00:26 which gave her 27th overall in ISC out of 538 boats. High Note got round in 8:54:42 which won her the Sonata salver. If my sums are correct all the Sonatas would have been in the top 50 of ISC.
It is interesting to look at the start times IRC Group 3 at 0600, the Sonatas (and Contessa 32s, Nic 32s and ISCRS Group 5) at 0610, the Folkboats at 0630 and ISCRS at 0640.
Starting at 0610 we had a spinnaker reach all the way from the start to the Needles and were round the Needles for 0830 and were then bucking the tide for the best part of an hour. It was only at this point in Freshwater Bay that the Contessa 32s and some of the other larger ISCRS Group 5 boats started to roll over us. The boats starting in later groups probably got round the Needles just on slack water so the Folkboats and Pintsize in ISCRS got an advantage here but perhaps they also had less of the ebb coming through Hurst narrows and down the Western Solent.
The overfalls round St Catherine’s didn’t really materialise which as we had the flood tide by then and a gusty N-N’Easterly I found a bit surprising. We were still in with some of the Contessa 32s at this stage.
We got to Bembridge Ledge Buoy at about 1300 and at this pojnt were still in sight of the Xantz and High Note. I reckoned that slack water in the Eastern Solent wasn’t till about 1530 so we stayed inshore. The problem with this tactic was that each time you were forced to tack out to find some depth you were on port tack and constantly having to dodge boats on starboard. Tacking back onto starboard it was difficult to find any clear air and this is where we lost touch with the Xantz and High Note. At times the echo sounder was only reading 1.5m so although we didn’t touch the bottom we were quite close at times. It would be interesting to know what tactics the other Sonatas used to get round the sands or if they stayed out to find some clear air……or even stayed in further than us. We didn’t see many boats even Folkboats inshore of us.
I agree that rolling us into a IRC class with the Sonata salver as an additional incentive for the first boat home is a good idea an as you say could give a Sonata a shot at winning the Golden Roman Bowl. As you say the only drawback is that you have to have the IRC certificate which costs whereas the ISCRS is free. However it does look as though the Sonata will do better under IRC……..having said that the skipper of Pintsize is an experienced RTI sailor having previously won the Silver Roman Bowl so it would be interesting to know why he chose to enter ISCRS.
It was a great sail and even though we finished last out of all the Sonatas we are looking forward to next year
Chris Bentley
Hi Chris, and the other Sonatas who competed in the RTI,
As pointed out in the posts, the RTI can be a very different race for similar boats, even given small gaps in start times. Thus my suggestion that we, the Sonatas, race IRC and include the Salver for the individual Sonata winner. Unfortunately, that excludes boats racing under ISC handicap – this year – Pint Size. Would you, Pint Size, like to comment on that?
And, anyone else who did/have done it in a Sonata.
Chris, thanks for a comprehensive analysis around the course. I would lay a substantial bet that the Nordics were so far up the beach after Bembridge Ledge that you couldn’t see them against the shore, only coming out for the ‘Trap’, by which time, they would have been behind you. A reach in the Eastern Solent is to their total benefit as they can then really skim the bottom all the way. In 2009, we all had to tack sometime, because it turned into a beat past Ryde Pier.
Maybe the RTI Management will take on board my comments, and, I guess, there will be others from the rest of the IRC fleet about the bias towards shallow draft for the immediate past races.
Cheers
Chris
Richard Breese
Hi Chris and all,
We “Impro” had already taken the decision to race in the IRC class next year before I read the posts here so you have our vote to combine.
Personally I quite enjoy comming over Ryde Sands, certainly adds some entertainment towards the end of the race (just where you could really do without it), even though thats where we lost out to “High Note” and “Xantz” when they ducked inshore after Ryde and we took the direct track (right in the worst tide).
I think that a Sonata can win the IRC, if my assesment of where everybody was in the race is correct then we all sailed better in some parts and worse in others, I think we were behind at the Needles, we then lost sight of everybody else until approaching Bembridge where I think we were first round (12:36), then we threw it away with a couple of handling and tactical errors, the point being that if you put the good bits of all our races together then you would probably be not to far off.
I would be interested to know where everybody else went along the south side of the island??? we cut in to the start of Brook Ledge and then hugged the shore until leaving Dunnose direct to Bembridge.
Richard
Alan Moore
Thanks chaps for the acknowledgement that Pintsize was fastest Sonata round the island this year. There was bout ten minutes in it, although we did start 30 minutes later than the Class. This probably gave us a slight advantage at the Needles, although the tide was still against us round the corner; indeed there was no wind and adverse tide for about ten minutes at that point.
It would not be exaggerating to say that I have raced around the IOW at least 100 times so I do know my way round and, admittedly some years ago now, did pick up the Silver Gilt Roman Challenge Bowl although that was in a Hunter Delta rather than Sonata.
Several of you have asked why I entered the ISC handicap class. Just once a year my children, wife and I get to race together, so we enter the Family Trophy and that means we have to do it within ISC. We came a close second in 2009, and a not so close 7th this year.
I have raced, boat for boat, against the Folkboats in IRC for many years in this race. There may be something in people’s comments about their shallow draft and Ryde Sands. However Madeleine – the FB with the most consistent winning record – is a boat and crew I know well and I have never seen them sailing significantly inshore of the main fleet around Ryde. Always on the shore side of teh fleet – as you have to be – but only just. I have come to the conclusion over the years that this boat is very well sailed and that the FB comes out well under the IRC handicapping system.
It always gives me much pleasure to overtake a FB, especially if it started before me!
Would I enter Pintsize under IRC? Probably not. I only race her 2-3 times a year and wouldn’t bother getting the IRC Certificate. As long as my family are prepared to do this race with me I’ll stick where I am.
See you out there next year!
Alan Moore
“Pintsize”
Olly Bewes
Hi All
Thanks for the congratulations. We had a fantastic race.
Very interested to see this topic. Here’s my two pence worth.
I was sad to see that there were far less Sonata’s entered this year, both in IRC and the OD class. So last year it was much more frustrating than this that we were not able to enter as a OD and in IRC. Following last year’s result we realised we could have done quite well in IRC, therefore my crew were putting pressure on me to enter IRC this year. However racing against other Sonatas is the most important thing for me as it is a rare opportunity as there are no other Sonata’s racing from the Hamble where I keep the boat.
Considering it was such a long race I was amazed and excited to see that it was almost anyboy’s race right up to Ryde Sands. It made for a great day’s racing and I learnt so much more about the boat than I would have racing in IRC. That said, if we were able to do both we would have the best of both worlds and if there is a chance that this can be arranged it should be pursued.
While I’m here, where do you all sail from? I’m currently find it very frustrating that I’m the only Sonata racing from the Hamble and if I knew there was another boat racing reguarly in IRC in Solent I would make the effort to join in.
Regards
Olly
“High Note”
Douglas L Struth
All
Having seen everyone elses thoughts on this years round the island race , I should also participate.
We enjoyed the race ( which was fairly close for us up until St Katherines Point)- Well done to Olly to contiue close to the shore from there .
I dont race very often as the boat is based in Chichester marina ( the marinas in Hamble are too expensive and moorings hard to come by )
I would prefer if we could simply try and increase particiation in our own Class – how that is achieved I am not sure.
However if IRC is the way forward, then everyone should be made aware of this as soon as possible so as to get the certificate ( I havent checked what is involved or the timescales – hopefully not too complicated ).
Regards
Doug Struth “Tosca”
Richard Breese
Hi All
Thanks for the congratulations. We had a fantastic race.
Very interested to see this topic. Here’s my two pence worth.
I was sad to see that there were far less Sonata’s entered this year, both in IRC and the OD class. So last year it was much more frustrating than this that we were not able to enter as a OD and in IRC. Following last year’s result we realised we could have done quite well in IRC, therefore my crew were putting pressure on me to enter IRC this year. However racing against other Sonatas is the most important thing for me as it is a rare opportunity as there are no other Sonata’s racing from the Hamble where I keep the boat.
Considering it was such a long race I was amazed and excited to see that it was almost anyboy’s race right up to Ryde Sands. It made for a great day’s racing and I learnt so much more about the boat than I would have racing in IRC. That said, if we were able to do both we would have the best of both worlds and if there is a chance that this can be arranged it should be pursued.
While I’m here, where do you all sail from? I’m currently find it very frustrating that I’m the only Sonata racing from the Hamble and if I knew there was another boat racing reguarly in IRC in Solent I would make the effort to join in.
Regards
Olly
“High Note”
Hi Olly,
We are racing from Lymington in the RLymYC Thurs evening series, we are currently the only Sonata (there was one other but the owner sold it in favour of a Dehler), we may also do the LTSC Solent Circuit this year as well.
Would be good to have another Sonata to race against.
Regards
Richard
“Impro”
Chris Bentley
Hi Olly,
We are racing from Lymington in the RLymYC Thurs evening series, we are currently the only Sonata (there was one other but the owner sold it in favour of a Dehler), we may also do the LTSC Solent Circuit this year as well.
Would be good to have another Sonata to race against.
Regards
Richard
“Impro”
Chris Bentley
Hi All,
Been watching your various posts.
Allan, I respect your experience of RTI, also your decision to remain in the ISC class. Good for you. The rest of us, I think, are looking for a different agenda from what I read on the site. My suggestion is this: we, as a Sonata fleet, race IRC and, within that, we award the Sonata Salver to the fastest Sonata around within the IRC fleet (sorry, Alan) That way, we all have a shot at the IRC trophies, which, as documented, are not impossible, and, if not, the very nice plate which I put my name on last year. No idea what the ‘deed of gift’ says about the Sonata Salver, but I will check.
Is this the way forward for 2011? As a side, BFG registered IRC before the RTI. It took 3 days and £50.00 because we wanted to give one up to our Medway cruisers. But we decided to race Sonata Class in 2009 RTI. Had we raced IRC, the numbers calc suggested we would have been third overall, so a Sonata has a real chance of the Roman Bowl.
All you interested in RTI, just give me a response; IRC or not and I will process.
Chris
PS The only reason we didn’t defend our Salver this year was because we were on our way back from our Scottish campaign at the time and took time on the way back to compete in the Northerns at Whiby. We will be back at the RTI next year!
Richard Breese
Hi All,
Been watching your various posts.
Allan, I respect your experience of RTI, also your decision to remain in the ISC class. Good for you. The rest of us, I think, are looking for a different agenda from what I read on the site. My suggestion is this: we, as a Sonata fleet, race IRC and, within that, we award the Sonata Salver to the fastest Sonata around within the IRC fleet (sorry, Alan) That way, we all have a shot at the IRC trophies, which, as documented, are not impossible, and, if not, the very nice plate which I put my name on last year. No idea what the ‘deed of gift’ says about the Sonata Salver, but I will check.
Is this the way forward for 2011? As a side, BFG registered IRC before the RTI. It took 3 days and £50.00 because we wanted to give one up to our Medway cruisers. But we decided to race Sonata Class in 2009 RTI. Had we raced IRC, the numbers calc suggested we would have been third overall, so a Sonata has a real chance of the Roman Bowl.
All you interested in RTI, just give me a response; IRC or not and I will process.
Chris
PS The only reason we didn’t defend our Salver this year was because we were on our way back from our Scottish campaign at the time and took time on the way back to compete in the Northerns at Whiby. We will be back at the RTI next year!
IRC for us Chris.
Cheers
Richard
“Impro”
Robert Davis
Team racing against the Nordics sounds good to me.
Whoops, I think I just committed to being there!
Bob Davis
Sarabande
Steven Rolland
Yes, we’d be happy racing IRC if we enter it again.
Regards,
Steven
‘Figaro’
Chris Bentley
IRC for us Chris.
Cheers
Richard
“Impro”
Chris Bentley
Hi all,
Following the positive response to my suggestion that we combine the RTI Sonata Class Race with an appropriate IRC Class, still awarding the Sonata Salver to the first Sonata home, here’s the result of the correspondence I have been having with the ISC:
From: Chris Thomas, Sailing Secretary, RTI Steering Group
Dear Chris,
The Round the Island Steering Group Committee met recently and discussed your request.
The Group has been looking at other classes and their entry numbers and are delighted to accept your idea to go into the IRC class.
There is no Deed of Gift on our files (I had asked if they knew of one, and if it might preclude my request) so we are happy to allow the trophy to follow you, and will be presented to the first Sonata in IRC. The Sonata one design class will cease to be available.
Looking forward to seeing lots of Sonatas on the start line for RIR2011.
Kindest Regards
Chris Thomas
I really hope this will encourage more entries in 2011, and, having made the move, it would be nice if all of us could seriously consider entering – it is a fab race. As above, Sonatas have a very real prospect of getting a good place under IRC. If you are not already IRC rated, it’s very simple -see this website. BFG is up for it. I hope to see lots of competition on the line!
My apologies to anyone out there who was thinking of entering the Sonata Class RTI – it doesn’t exist any more. Instead, you will have to cough up for IRC but it’s only £50 or so, and think of the havoc you could also wreak in your local cruiser class races – we did!
Regards,
Chris
Robert Davis
Great. We will be there.
Look forward to beating my brother in law in whatever massive boat he is sailing!
The other cost to entering the RTI is that we need to get the boat up to Cat 4 regulations. Probably a good idea any way.
Bob Davis
Steven Rolland
I agree, it did seem a shame last year to enter the worlds largest sailing race and compete against eight or nine other boats.
Maybe we need a discussion on whether it is for IRC or ISCRS. I would probably vote for IRC, although the boat is supposed to be a more family orientated racer/cruiser so maybe ISCRS would be more in the spirit of the class.
Steven
“Figaro”